Turning Over a New Leaf: A Candid Chat with NORML's Paul Armentano

Dive into a compelling dialogue with NORML's Deputy Director, Paul Armentano, as we dissect the journey of legal cannabis initiatives in Congress. From the '90s draconian proposals by Newt Gingrich to today’s more enlightened stance, we unpack the evolving narrative. Paul debunks certain media myths comparing potential harm from smoking cannabis to smoking tobacco, shedding light on some lesser-known facts. I also share my minty escapade with Kush Mints flower from FloraCal Farms, and in our Illinois News Joint Wrap, unveil upcoming cannabis events and policy changes in Illinois. We conclude with a striking study on traffic death rates in cannabis-legal states. Hit play for a blend of historical insights, current analysis, and a sprinkle of cannabis culture. Make sure to subscribe and catch every enlightening episode of the Cannabis Man Podcast!

Transcript

0:00
hello there and welcome into another episode of the Cannabis man podcast thank you for clicking on the show I'm
0:06
your host Don Kleppin and I want to say I really appreciate everybody who's been listening to the show and engaging with
0:13
it I love hearing from all of you and I love hearing about how excited you are about the Cannabis space as much as I am
0:20
there's so much going on so much to talk about and that's just a big part of why I wanted to start this show and uh I've
0:26
been loving the response that I've been getting from from you the listener so keep it up love hearing from you and
0:31
I've got a lot to talk about this week there has been a lot going on and I've got some topics I want to get to
0:37
including which strain of the week that I have been uh em bibing as well as a great interview with somebody I know
0:44
you're going to love hearing from this is someone who has been an advocate uh and an expert on cannabis for the last
0:51
three plus decades and it's somebody who is involved at a very high level in the National Organization for the reform of
0:57
marijuana laws or normal which is an organization I'm sure you're familiar with and we talk about a lot in that
1:04
interview uh especially some great perspective about you know as frustrating as it can be I know you and
1:10
I as as exciting as this time with legal cannabis is it's also can be so frustrating uh in terms of where we know
1:18
things should be with the legal landscape and how far we still have to go but is my guest today reminds us over
1:25
the last 30 plus years there has been a lot of Serious Sign ific progress in
1:31
legal cannabis and the momentum is still there uh we are not by any means at the
1:37
final resting place we're not at the Finish Line uh in terms of where cannabis ends up legally in the United
1:44
States there's still a lot happening but when you look at you know what the landscape was like 30 years ago in 1993
1:51
from when I'm recording this things were very very different uh here in the US and around the world in terms of
1:57
cannabis and the prohibition and there was there was certainly there was no real momentum then for legal cannabis in
2:04
the US and here we are now talking about safer banking uh being passed soon as well as the rescheduling of cannabis
2:11
making it schedule three um there there's a lot to be excited about here and my guest today reminds us that as
2:18
frustrating as it can be today wishing that things were different they are very
2:23
different from where they were just a few decades ago so that's a great interview I look forward to sharing that
2:30
with you also going to talk about the strain of the week that I've been smoking on another Flor Cal flow product
2:35
and a couple of news stories and events in the news joint WAP as well as uh something else that I found was very
2:41
interesting it was a study that was released and some new information about traffic death rates in states that
2:48
legalize cannabis versus states that have not and you may be surprised to uh find out what they found in that study
2:55
so I'll bring that to you later this episode if you want to follow along with the show any updates that you'd care to
3:01
get it's @ cman podcast on X and Instagram the Cannabis man podcast on
3:07
Facebook YouTube and Tik Tok you can always uh contact the show via the
3:12
website as well and that website has undergone a change my site for the show
3:18
is now cannabis man. buzzsprout.com I'm using the platform uh
3:24
that I create the show on and that I publish it on uh generates a web page and I just decided to go that route
3:30
instead of the former page because that was costing me a little bit of money that ultimately I decided was uh
3:36
Superfluous if you like so the new site is cannabis man. buzzsprout.com you can
3:42
uh click on the show description notes it'll take you there if you like and if you ever want to support the show you
3:48
can scroll down to the description notes and click on the support show link it'll take you to the subscriber page through
3:54
buzzsprout and you can support the show however you feel like I really appreciate everybody who's has done that
4:00
and everyone who continues to support the show it's what makes this possible uh and I I really really do appreciate
4:06
it trying to bring you some good uh cannabis conversations some perspectives and some news related to this legal
4:12
cannabis space and so anybody who helps me do that I I really throw you an extra
4:17
tip at the cap because without you this show doesn't happen so thank you very much and some personal news uh it has
4:24
been a busy year for me and my family here listener as you may know I got married earlier this year to my wife
4:30
Gretchen we got married in June uh June 11th of 2023 and then we were right off
4:35
on our honeymoon on Maui which was absolutely beautiful and lovely and we
4:40
got out of Maui got off the island about a week or so before the fires uh took over that island so I'm very very
4:46
thankful that that Gretchen and I were were able to go and see this magical place and have such a wonderful time
4:53
there two weeks just full of memories we got to see the banion tree we got to see so much Mount h AKA just a an excellent
5:01
place and you know the fires have devastated it so if if you know you've heard plenty about this I know over the
5:06
summer uh we certainly gave what we could to donate to the to the Maui rescue fund and uh anybody else who can
5:13
do that it's it's definitely a place worth saving but I bring that up because uh there has been another development in
5:19
my personal life and some news that Gretchen and I shared with our families on Sunday and that we put out on social
5:25
media earlier in this week but I wanted to tell you as well listen because I'm telling everybody I'm excited Gretchen
5:32
is pregnant and we are expecting our first child come April of 2024 and uh I
5:38
I just I'm over the moon I I really can't even express how crazy to me it is
5:43
you know how much life can change in in a short time I mean looking at a year
5:48
ago um we were engaged and we were looking forward to our our wedding and and honeymoon and all that but now it's
5:56
now we're looking at a whole different part of life a whole different chapter chapter and I I'm so excited and
6:01
thrilled to uh to explore that with her and uh I'm really really looking forward to uh to bringing a new CLP and into the
6:07
world this is uh it's an exciting time and I'm just so happy and I wanted to share that news with you because in just
6:14
six short months there'll be another clip in here running around this house and maybe uh I'll get some recordings of
6:20
uh of the little guy or girl we're not going to know uh which it is until they're born we decided that we would
6:26
rather not know the gender until they are delivered in that room and we'll find out then uh which we have so we're
6:33
both very excited about that and uh and life keeps on moving as does legal cannabis in the US lots to talk about
6:40
regarding that and so let's get into this episode of the Cannabis man
6:58
podcast [Music]
7:08
[Music]
7:15
this is Tommy Chong and you're listening to the canopis
7:24
broadcast yeah there we are listener okay let's get into the strain of the
7:29
week I've got my coffee here listener if you've listened to the show before you know that I love my cannabis and coffee
7:35
and that's the combo that I'm vibing on this morning so cheers to you uh if you're listening uh in the afternoon
7:41
evening or morning I hope you got a drink in your hand or just something that uh helps you feel the vibe for the
7:47
day feel a good vibe put you in a nice mental Place whatever that might be cheers to you and hope you have a great
7:55
day so uh The Strain that I've been smoking on this week is is uh the final Flora Cal Farms product the flower from
8:03
them that I was able to try courtesy of Cresco Labs I was able to speak with somebody from Cresco Dana Mason of their
8:10
uh marketing department wholesale marketing and she uh shared a lot about cesco's philosophy and about some of the
8:16
products that they've got some of the popular ones uh I'm sure if you're an Illinois listener or other states you
8:22
may be familiar with Sunnyside and Cresco I really had a great conversation with her and I look forward to bringing
8:28
you that uh in the next few weeks here but the final florical flower that I
8:33
smoked on courtesy of Cresco was kush mints this is a a lineage between Bubba
8:40
Kush bx1 and animal mints it's an indicia dominant strain and the dominant
8:46
tpin are kilene limonene and merine uh it's a minty flavor it smells lemony and
8:53
minty clean and sharp that's uh sort of what I wrote down here physically you get these leafy green buds uh mid-grade
9:01
Frost not like the frost is falling off of the leaves or the buds but it is
9:06
definitely a frosty batch uh this was harvested May 23rd and packaged June 7th
9:12
the thca listed is
9:28
32.411070 and I wouldn't describe it as like a cheese mint whatever that is but
9:33
I you get kind of both separately you get the minty flavor on the inhale and kind of a Cheesy uh burn on the exhale
9:42
the feel that I got uh as I wrote These down you know listener that I've tried to start as I'm reviewing these I try
9:48
and check in with myself every 15 20 minutes at least for the first hour or
9:53
two after smoking or or imbibing the edible whatever it is that I'm ingesting I'm trying to give you a little bit more
10:00
detailed feedback so I'm I'm reviewing these I check in with myself every 15 minutes I felt pretty upbeat for an
10:06
Indica on kushman some release from muscle soreness I've been feeling and I kind of was wondering to myself if it's
10:13
a legitimate pain relief or just kind of a mental distraction from the pain I've been feeling I'm sure you've experienced
10:20
this too if you've been sick or feeling some negative symptoms from something uh one of the great things about cannabis
10:27
is that uh sometimes it PR provides you with actual relief from that chronic
10:32
pain if you've got joint pain or body pain it can provide you relief from that but if you've ever tried it while you're
10:37
sick it also sort of provides like a mental break where it may not actually
10:44
get rid of your symptoms but it can bring your mind to a place where you're not fixated on those symptoms and you
10:51
can just kind of get around your day you can do things without sitting there focusing on them so I was kind of
10:56
wondering if that was the case with this kushman if it was actually giving me relief from muscle soreness or if it was
11:02
just kind of a distraction uh after about 20 minutes I realized that it was genuine relief from the body pain again
11:09
just muscle soreness from working out it wasn't anything more significant than that for me so I'd be interested to hear
11:15
how you feel about Kush mints try it out I got some minor Munchies uh and I went for these cauliflower tortilla chips we
11:22
had nacho cheese flavor and those were definitely not bad uh I enjoyed those
11:28
although uh later on I continued my writing here and I say the munchies
11:33
graduated from minor to Major I poured a bowl of Raisin brand crunch not too much
11:40
with some almond milk and I uh decided to add some chocolate syrup into there I
11:45
was munching pretty hard and followed by some graham crackers and whipped cream I
11:50
went on a bit of a snack binge 30 to 60 Minutes in totally zoned as I wrote down
11:56
back of my head and the temples really felt it uh I was definitely feeling the indicia I could still function but you
12:03
know uh in terms of the efficacy or in terms of the efficiency of my functioning uh I definitely wouldn't
12:09
have been doing something like my taxes or whatever I was functioning like um making a bowl of raisen brand with uh
12:16
putting chocolate syrup into the almond milk that was the level of function that I was really going with here and maybe
12:21
playing a video game or or watching something but that was my experience with Kush mints and I really really
12:27
enjoyed it if you like Inda uh and one that does Zonk you out but but still allows you to kind of peel yourself away
12:34
from the couch every now and again and maybe uh do a couple of things Munch uh in whatever is in your cabinets but also
12:41
just kind of have a fun good time nice body high and also feeling that Spacey
12:46
kind of kooky feel in your mind that is what I got from Kush mins and if you try it let me know what you thought about it
12:53
uh hit me up at cman podcast on X or Instagram and email the show go to the website any uh feelings that you have
13:00
for uh this particular brand or anything else you're trying always let me know what you thought now let's jump into the
13:07
news joint WP that's right this is the uh portion of the show where I give you some events and news stories coming up
13:14
in and around Illinois all brought to you by Illinois newws joint.com think of
13:20
it as the joint you can hit for all your Illinois Cannabis News and reviews and let's start with the Illinois Cannabis
13:26
Cup awards ceremony which is going to air November 6th just a few days from when this episode is being released here
13:34
it's the fourth annual Illinois High Times magazine People's Choice Cannabis Cup Awards and after the judges reviewed
13:42
their 2023 kits you may remember these went for sale in August I did a
13:47
highlighting episode about that the award ceremony is set to stream at 420
13:53
p.m. on Monday November 6th you can check it out at the High Times Facebook
13:58
page AG categories include indicia sativa and hybrid flowers pre-rolls
14:03
infused and non solvent concentrates non solvents vape pens and cartridges and
14:09
Edibles gummies and fruit chewes chocolates and non- gummies and beverages along with topicals tinctures
14:15
capsules and sublinguals and then you get medical flower vape pens and carts and Edibles as well all of those will be
14:22
looked into and you will find out which of those which categories anyway which
14:27
products in those categories that Illinois cannabis judges felt were the best moving on to the next story new
14:34
cannabis tax rates are going to start on cannabis products January 1st of 24 this
14:40
is from a bulletin from Illinois Department of Revenue and they highlight the rates here it may not exceed 3% but
14:47
these are not going to replace the existing taxes on municipalities these are in addition two so listen here in
14:55
unincorporated areas of the county the rate may not exceed 3.75% in municipally located County
15:03
places the rate may not exceed 3% but again so you will start to see
15:09
again I know we're not thrilled about the prices of cannabis products here in Illinois but you're about to see a
15:14
little bit of a bump in those prices even more so uh 3.75 in unincorporated
15:21
parts of cook and other Illinois counties 3% uh in the municipalities
15:26
there and those tax bumps are going to increase even by a little bit the prices
15:31
that you are paying for your Illinois cannabis products and one more news story here from illino newsj joint.com
15:37
Green Rose files the 1500 foot rule lawsuit against
15:44
idfpr Green Rose dispensary Representatives last week sent out a press release stating that gri Holdings
15:51
filed a law suit in the Circuit Court of Cook County to stop another social Equity cannabis dispensary from opening
15:58
in River North at the old Rainforest Cafe location I've been eyeing the
16:04
process of this listener because I've been so interested for when that Rainforest Cafe dispensary was going to
16:10
open and now it seems there'll be another lengthy delay in this process because of this lawsuit filed by Green
16:17
Rose dispensary the 1500t rule is meant to keep it so that we're not getting a
16:24
huge influx of dispensaries in any one location River North as you know of Chicago is a very hot location for bars
16:33
restaurants clubs as well as now dispensaries uh I've gone to the Sunny Side in River North there there are
16:39
several other options very nearby this is related to the 1500 foot rule gr
16:46
Holdings claims the crta prohibits cannabis dispensaries from locating within 1500 ft of another cannabis
16:52
dispensary to avoid neighborhoods from becoming overrun with dispensaries and keep them economic
16:59
viable uh we've talked about some other markets that have legalized cannabis on the show before listener and as you may
17:05
have heard me say when different markets just throw the doors open and let anybody become a dispenser of legal
17:11
cannabis and then you have those same businesses opening up dispensaries you know 10 15t from one another we see what
17:18
happens with gas stations and fast food restaurants as well um anytime that an
17:23
area becomes overrun a lot of those businesses are going to suffer they're they're profits are just not going to be
17:29
there because somebody will find the bottom of pricing and then customers consumers will just end up going to that
17:37
one and all the others that have opened in the area uh ultimately end up falling short of of making profits that they
17:45
would need in order to sustain their operations so that is what is at Heart
17:50
of this lawsuit that green Rose filed against the uh Department of Professional and financial regulation of
17:56
the state and that is uh going through the courts right now we will see where that ends up and I will certainly bring
18:03
you any details or updates on that story as well as any other news stories and events coming out in or around Illinois
18:10
related to cannabis on the news joint WP brought to you by Illinois newsj joint.com listener strap in we have a
18:17
very special guest today and I'm very excited to talk with him uh this is a man who has over 30 years of
18:24
professional experience working on cannabis policy and he focuses especially on science and data he's
18:32
authored several books on cannabis policy review papers and hundreds of op EDS a recent one of which was published
18:39
and I'm so thrilled to talk with him about it uh his oped kind of called out some of the media coverage that I've
18:45
mentioned on this show which was depicting the harm from Cannabis smoke and tobacco smoke as equal in addition
18:53
to that uh my guest uh was the lead witness last year at a congressional hearing at the house oversight committee
18:59
on cannabis policy and uh he has done so much for the work he's currently uh the
19:05
deputy director of an organization you may have heard of the National Organization for the reform of marijuana
19:11
laws AKA normal listener please welcome to the show Paul armano welcome Paul
19:17
thank you it's a pleasure to speak with you thank you again and and uh did I did I have that right uh I just want to make
19:23
sure I had your title correct with normal was that was that about right yes I am the deputy director of normal and
19:30
yes I have been working in this Arena uh Going on 30 years much of that time I
19:36
have spent working with normal to try to reform America's archaic and failed
19:44
marijuana policiy yes and and thank you for the work that you do at normal uh it is absolutely leading the way in terms
19:52
of the effort to uh to as you said change these archaic uh cannabis laws
19:57
that we have and we are still I mean we're recording this this is October 23rd of
20:02
2023 um you know I'm here in Illinois they legalized recreationally four years
20:08
ago um medically different states have have done that over the years and such but just just to get started how do you
20:15
feel today about the state of of cannabis legal cannabis in the United
20:22
States uh with this Patchwork of of legalization that we have rather than a federal policy here how do you feel
20:28
about it I think it's very predictable uh when I got into this space 30 plus
20:34
years ago keep in mind there were no jurisdictions in this country where
20:40
medical cannabis was legally permitted and there were no jurisdictions in this country where the adult use of marijuana
20:47
was either legal or regulated and when it came to the conversations that were
20:52
taking place about cannabis policy at the federal level uh when I one of the
20:57
first first couple of years I was in Washington DC doing this work one of the only pieces of legislation that received
21:05
any level of debate in Congress when it came to marijuana policy was a bill that
21:11
was introduced by then Speaker of the House new Gingrich that sought to impose
21:16
the death penalty for the importation of more than two ounces of cannabis into
21:23
the United States oh my God so that was the landscape three decades ago
21:28
today things obviously are very different we have 23 States like
21:34
Illinois where the adult youth of marijuana is legally regulated we have 38 states where a physician can
21:41
authorize a qualifying patient to access uh medical marijuana products and we
21:48
have had at on two separate occasions uh the House of Representatives enact or
21:56
pass legislation that would remove cannabis from its schedule one
22:01
classification under federal law thereby allowing States the authority and
22:08
autonomy to set their own marijuana policies free from any undue Federal
22:13
interference so while there's still much work to be done we have made great
22:19
strides in these last three decades and I do want to remind your listeners that
22:26
we live in a federal Republic there is not going to be a scenario where the
22:33
federal government is going to wave a magic wand and mandate all 50 states in
22:40
Washington DC legalize marijuana and set the same marijuana policies that wasn't
22:47
the case with alcohol when the federal government repealed the federal prohibition of alcohol it did not
22:55
mandate states to legalize alcohol it simply got out of the way and allowed
23:01
individual states to make their own individual decisions and set their own
23:06
individual alcohol policies that's why we have a patchwork of policies with
23:13
amongst the states when it comes to how they regulate alcohol where I grew up in
23:18
Connecticut they regulate alcohol much differently than California or Texas so
23:23
to see this sort of Patchwork system play out with respect to marijuana
23:29
a it's a significant Victory B it's really a manifestation of how our
23:34
political system operate right on and and I really appreciate you kind of spelling that out the historical
23:40
perspective you just provided to everybody 30 years ago I mean just for a
23:45
moment I I know so many of my you know so many of the listeners are are younger so just for a moment imagine that the
23:53
debate in Congress was about potentially adding the death penalty for importing
23:58
more than 2 ounces of of cannabis I mean that puts into perspective how far we've
24:03
come from that um the fact that you know here in Illinois and other legal states you can you can just go buy with or
24:10
without a medical card you can buy this product uh and and some states you know
24:15
with with the hemp Bill uh you know recently enacted at lower than a certain
24:20
threshold for THC you can send it in the mail to you can send certain products to other states so I really appreciate you
24:27
Paul putting that perspective out there because there's so much frustration from people still because as you said there's
24:33
still a lot of work to be done it's not perfect but we have come a long way and
24:38
this is uh it is a very exciting time yeah and I would also emphasize because we are recording this just days after
24:45
the FBI reported their latest Uniform Crime Report um according to the FBI
24:52
there were about 225,000 arrests made in the year 2022 for marijuana obviously
25:00
even one arrest of an adult consumer is one too many but again to put that
25:06
number in perspective in 2007 there were nearly a million arrests made in this
25:12
country for marijuana violations so when we look at the different sort of metrics
25:18
here how many states have legalized is uh medical marijuana becoming more accessible to me that's the most
25:25
important metric how how many arrests have we eliminated how many
25:32
opportunities have we had to stop law enforcement and the heavy hand of police
25:37
from ruining people's lives and we have seen those arrests uh decline fourfold
25:43
in this country over the last decade that's a direct result of the changes in policy that is taking place in States
25:50
like Illinois and elsewhere absolutely and and another great point and it gets to exactly what you focus on which is
25:57
this sort of data which is this sort of these numbers the scientific facts about
26:03
arrest numbers and and and the like and and those sorts of things and I want to I I again I mentioned the oped that you
26:10
recently wrote um and and I want to just you know bring you know this attention to this for the listener because this is
26:17
something I mentioned when it first came out and the the title of the oped that I'm discussing here is let's dispel the
26:24
myth that cannabis and tobacco smoke are equally hazardous to your health and I I
26:31
I won't you know go through the entirety of it but you make a lot of great points in here Paul and and I just wanted to
26:36
applaud you because before we started recording here we were discussing about how certain media uh Publications and
26:45
and I'll call out CNN specifically because I mentioned it before they seem
26:50
almost eager to run with an anti- or uh you know a negative coverage of of
26:58
cannabis whenever studies like these seem to come out uh you quoted one of
27:03
their articles recently many Americans uh wrongly believe exposure to marijuana
27:08
smoke is safer than tobacco uh and other such likes can talk a little about what
27:13
prompted you to write this oped and why we know what's the data that backs up
27:20
that cannabis smoke and tobacco smoke are not equal in terms of harm well was quite interesting there was a a study
27:27
that was published where the researchers were asking members of the American public to weigh in on this topic and to
27:36
discuss which particular Behavior they thought was more potentially hazardous
27:42
to health smoking tobacco or smoking cannabis a majority of the respondents
27:48
who spoke with the researchers answered that question correctly they said well
27:53
clearly smoking tobacco is far more dangerous than smoking marijuana which is consistent with what the available
28:00
evidence tells us for whatever reason that answer seem to really get under the
28:07
skin of the researchers who wrote this article who had the audacity to basically say you know the Public's got
28:13
this wrong they've been misled on this because we know that there's no s
28:18
there's there's no possible way anybody can inhale any kind of combustive smoke safely and they should have answered the
28:25
question that both of these Behavior are equally harmful and that was sort of the commentary that they put out uh in their
28:33
study and that was the commentary that CNN and a number of other outlets uh ran with that they put in their headline and
28:40
that they tried to validate uh in the course of their reporting uh which as
28:45
you can imagine was very difficult to do because again the scientific data that
28:50
we have um literally Decades of uh doesn't substantiate that position but
28:56
does substantiate what the public said that if you are to weigh the hazards of smoking tobacco versus the potential
29:03
risk of smoking marijuana that clearly uh the use of marijuana does not possess
29:10
anywhere near this sort of known subsi risks uh that are associated with uh
29:16
years of tobacco use you spell out in the oped you give a few examples CNN included some other Publications how
29:22
they spun the the the results of these surveys that you were just saying and
29:28
you know and then you say in fact it's the news media that's an error it is almost interesting you know you were
29:34
supposed to think of these Publications as having journalistic Integrity like they just report the facts and they're
29:41
neutral so they don't feel one way or the other about these things that's what we're supposed to believe but you know
29:47
as you just pointed out it's like they pull the public the public answers a
29:52
question correctly you know not even incorrectly but correctly and it seems like the the researchers the the poll
29:58
takers were were pissed off like they were irked by the the correctness of the
30:04
knowledge and then all of a sudden you know Publications like CNN then they're taking their time to try and sway the
30:11
narrative back in the other direction they put out other articles they put out things with headlines like these which
30:18
are meant to tell people hey um The public's wrong about this so anyone you
30:23
hear saying this uh no you're supposed to believe the other thing and it what
30:29
says to me is like well why are you why are you so invested in swinging that
30:35
narrative the other way why why do you feel so badly that the public is
30:42
believing this truth about cannabis smoke versus tobacco and I I just can't
30:47
I I can't really get my arms around it still but uh I have suspicions and all that and and I know that you know CNN at
30:55
least as far as I've been paying attention to this you know in the last you know 10 20 years as far as I can see
31:02
it CNN has been consistent in this sort of attitude toward cannabis coverage
31:09
would you agree with that I would uh their coverage generally uh is
31:14
relatively Sensational when it comes to addressing cannabis and they are clearly
31:20
very selective in the papers or the highlights that they choose to elevate
31:26
uh and not n times out of 10 those are typically papers that are purporting to
31:32
find some negative association uh whereas papers that have either a null effect or potentially a
31:40
positive conclusion are generally ignored uh but I don't want to just pick on CNN they're hardly alone uh in in in
31:47
their relatively poor marijuana coverage um but I would highlight the fact that
31:54
whether we're talking about CNN or so many of these other networks is there's this lack of institutional memory uh and
32:01
that really I thought uh came to the Forefront when you looked at how some of these Publications reported on uh this
32:08
recent paper uh it wasn't that long ago it was probably about 15 years ago where
32:15
the premier uh longitudinal study looking at the impact of smoking
32:21
marijuana longterm on the lungs uh was published by researchers at UCLA this
32:29
was a federally funded study uh it was a case control study so you had thousands
32:35
of people enrolled in the study many of them used cannabis uh others did not use
32:41
cannabis and researchers essentially tracked these individuals and assessed their lung health over about a 20e span
32:50
and at the end of this study what the researchers at UCLA concluded was that
32:57
the individuals who were long-term cannabis smokers had no elevated risk of
33:05
lung cancer or other respiratory diseases that paper was published
33:11
summaries of that paper appeared in the Washington Post and throughout mainstream news networks all around this
33:19
country if you were paying attention you would not have missed the results of that study so for writers at CNA and
33:27
some of these other media Outlets to go forward with the narrative they did they
33:33
have to be willfully ignorant of news of materials that were previously reported
33:39
by the same mainstream media but apparently just went down the memory hole yeah exactly it is a it's it sort
33:45
of gets at as you said you know short institutional memory and I know people like to kind of Point recency bias is
33:52
obviously you know I don't know if you call it a fault of the human condition or what but there are certainly some
33:59
that seem to suffer from that more than others and in the case of the media though this is as you point out it's
34:05
supposed to be kind of like a you know a catalog a chronicling of of life and truth and there's a whole database of of
34:13
information of publications of of headlines TV news articles radio stories
34:18
there's a whole you know ever since media's existed in the country there is a record of it you can go back and you
34:23
can search these things so the fact that people either willfully ignored it or
34:29
were ignorant of it and didn't do the proper research before they ran with the narrative I think it is telling
34:36
whichever sort of you know side of that you know you you buy more into let me ask you Paul since you've been doing this for for over 30 years and you do
34:43
look at the data and you are so well informed about uh everything going on here we I was speaking with someone last
34:50
week as the house was uh taking their second vote for a speaker uh actually
34:55
and it's spoken with with people when uh the Senate passed uh safer banking had
35:01
passed their most recent uh version of the banking cannabis bill that would
35:07
allow for businesses to get on the federal banking system and whatnot let me ask you um aside from the the
35:15
craziness happening in the house right now how close do you feel that safer Banking and cannabis businesses being
35:22
able to access in bank accounts like the rest of us do how close do you feel that
35:27
is I think it's a very difficult question to answer you know honestly I thought the greatest opportunity or the
35:33
greatest window for passing that sort of important reform legislation was in the
35:38
previous Congress and once that window closed the pathway forwards were going to get much more difficult there are a
35:46
number of reasons why I think it's going to be a very heavy lift the path any
35:51
sort of significant cannabis reform legislation in this Congress some of the
35:56
those reasons have to do with the fact that there is resistance among some
36:02
folks in Congress when it comes to this issue but much of it simply has to do with simply the dysfunctional uh
36:09
situation that Congress is in and the fact that we're heading toward an election next year and we have a deeply divided government and neither side
36:15
wants to give the other a win on anything uh heading into election uh but
36:21
you are correct that this is a legislation that I do think is sorely needed it is is difficult if not
36:28
impossible for a multi-billion dollar industry like this to operate largely on
36:34
a cash only basis and for startups and new entrepreneurs in this industry to be
36:40
able to get a foothold in it without having access to uh traditional lending
36:45
or even things like bankruptcy protection so certainly this is something that is needed I don't have a
36:51
crystal ball and can't give you a prediction on when I think Congress will actually go ahead and enact these
36:57
reforms totally I I completely understand and you bring up great Fair points and and I appreciate that and
37:02
I've I've talked on the show I mean the need for it is really kind of what I I was just wanted to talk about because as
37:08
you said this is a multi-billion dollar industry and we've we've had people on the show I've I've talked with many on
37:14
and off the mic here about the the notion that you are the the crime you
37:20
you're making these businesses targets of of robbers and and thieves and whatnot because they know that they're
37:27
all dealing in all cash you know whe whatever state this is PE the the secret it's not a secret it never has been they
37:33
know that what the deal is that these businesses have to operate on a cash basis and uh that makes the workers that
37:41
makes the businesses themselves just ripe targets for for crime and uh that
37:47
if nothing else I mean you're talking about Americans in danger uh as well as businesses that alone should be you're
37:54
putting their consumers at risk as well criminals know that the consumers uh that are coming and going with those
38:01
establishments also have to be dealing in all cash 100% so I I I agree with you
38:06
and I know that it is it is frustrating and for all the reasons you laid out there are some I know I've heard you
38:12
know Senator uh Chuck Schumer is apparently still planning to to bring safer banking to the floor and I I I do
38:20
think that you again you spelled out a lot of reasons why it may still not happen we are only a year or so out from
38:26
the next election uh we're in a deeply divided political climate here uh and
38:31
nobody does want to give the other a win so I it's it's disappointing but it does kind of feel like uh things are going to
38:38
stand Pat for the moment anyway let me ask you as well here uh in in terms of data and in terms of the the studies
38:44
that are being done some one doctor that I've spoken with on the show mentioned that a lot of these studies are reliant
38:52
on self-reporting you know because of just the nature of how these things are
38:58
done you know in terms of of laws and what what studies are green lit you know ferally and whatnot a lot of them are
39:03
kind of all they can do in terms of measurement is take uh self-reported data from from those who are
39:09
participating where do you think that the like I I guess what I'm trying to ask is what do you think the most
39:16
valuable studies you know can be done in the in the immediate or I guess maybe
39:23
what what needs to change federally so that we can answer some of these questions with hard data you know that
39:30
that you're talking about some of the questions about cannabis that we all have well I'm really glad you ask that question because I think it gets to
39:36
really the Crux of of one of these issues I got into this work 30 years ago
39:42
with this idea that we needed to change the narrative we needed to change the
39:47
way people talk about cannabis in this country because once we begin to change the way people talk about it we'll begin
39:54
to change the way people think about it and then we'll be able to change policy
39:59
and I've been very proud over the last 30 years of the changes that I have seen
40:05
with respect to our conversations about cannabis but the one narrative that I
40:12
feel continues to persist that I find most personally vexing is this notion
40:20
that we don't know enough about cannabis and its effects because it hasn't been
40:27
sufficiently studied that was a predominant narrative 30 years ago when
40:32
I began this work it remains a prominent narrative now and it is absolutely
40:39
unequivocally not true we have over 45,000 peer-reviewed scientific studies
40:48
dedicated to the cannabis plant its constituents and their effects we've had
40:54
about 30,000 of those studies studies published just within about the last
40:59
decade and a half the United States is the world leader in cannabis research I
41:06
would dare say there is very little if anything that we don't know about
41:14
cannabis we know its active constituents we know the receptors and the body that
41:21
they act upon we know what the purpose of that receptor system is we understand
41:26
the mechanism of action we understand the real world effects the individuals
41:32
into society when they use cannabis we understand the long-term effects of
41:37
human use and societal use of cannabis because human beings have been using this substance for literally thousands
41:45
of years it's really time we as a society start acknowledging and talking
41:51
about what we do know about cannabis and start harping on the fact that
41:58
supposedly there is so much we don't know about cannabis the reality is that
42:04
the information the science is there and just because you and I don't mean you
42:12
personally but you as a politician or you as a doctor right just because you
42:17
might not be aware of that data doesn't mean that we as a society aren't aware
42:24
of the data the problem has never been we don't have enough research the
42:30
problem is that we have had marijuana policies in this country and all too
42:36
often conversations about marijuana policy in this country that are divorced
42:42
from what the scientific data and from what the scientific record tells us we
42:48
had just this just last year alone order over 4500 published papers about
42:53
cannabis we'll have more than that this year we've had year over-year a growing
43:00
number of scientific papers going back to 1990 every single year since then we've
43:07
seen more Publications about cannabis the coming year than the year before that again this isn't a matter of what
43:14
we don't know we should be talking about what we do know and we know a whole hell of a lot I I love it I love it Paul I I
43:21
thank you so much for that response I I I feel that completely I mean I you mention about like the narrative and the
43:28
conversations about cannabis I I you know it's in in my own little small way what I'm doing here with the show that's
43:34
what prompted me to start this was literally that the fact that once it was legalized here in Illinois it felt to me
43:40
like everybody kept saying the same things that people were much more familiar about Stoner jokes and
43:45
punchlines and the sort of Reform Madness stuff than they were about potential quality of life improvements
43:51
and health benefits and and so believe me I'm I'm I'm right there with you and and I appreciate all the work that
43:57
you've done too and you know when when we talk about that what we what we do know like let's just you know the stuff
44:04
that we do know what we know is that cannabis long-term is way less detrimental is way
44:12
less harmful to human beings than alcohol and tobacco and both of those are fully normalized and fully parts of
44:19
our society so much to the point that like try going to a party with people and not having a drink and and see you
44:26
know if if nobody brings it up I I do think that thankfully we're moving you know more in in the direction of
44:33
mocktails and you know W with cannabis starting to grow in different states that have it you do start to see some
44:40
alcohol rates you know go down certainly anecdotally in in my regard here that's
44:46
just what I hear from most of the people that are using it after a while and I think that is a great thing can we talk
44:53
just a little bit briefly here about that that we do know you know we do know
44:58
that alcohol and tobacco are so harmful but they are such normal regular parts
45:04
of everyday life and cannabis isn't I I don't want to ask you you know how do we change that but you know obviously
45:10
you're doing work at normal to try and do this can you see a day when when cannabis when the positions are flipped
45:16
when this country is more normal and receptive toward cannabis use than
45:21
alcohol or tobacco I think we're actually getting to a point right now where cannabis is seen by Society far
45:30
more favorably than tobacco I don't necessarily think we'll get to a point
45:35
nor even is it any sort of personal goal of mine to get to a point where cannabis
45:41
say becomes as ubiquitous or more Ubi ubiquitous than uh alcohol frankly
45:47
personally I find the ubiquity of alcohol to be somewhat problematic in
45:52
this uh Society the fact that I couldn't sit sit down and and go through 30
45:57
minutes of a naturally broadcasted uh ball game with my young son uh and not
46:03
be inundated with advertising for alcohol I I I think that's a problem I wouldn't want necessarily want to see
46:09
cannabis uh treated that same way but you're certainly correct that when it
46:14
comes to potential uh long-term harms uh that the harms Associated to both
46:20
society and to the indiv individual users's health uh associated with alcohol and tobacco are far more
46:27
significant than those associated with cannabis and there might be some of your listeners out there saying well how do
46:32
you know that Paul and it's because again this question has been asked and answered this has been studied that's
46:39
how we know we have dozens and dozens of longitudinal studies where individuals
46:46
are recruited in their late teens or early 20s and scientists follow them for
46:51
the next 20 30 years and they divide these folks up and the Cannabis only
46:57
users and alcohol only users and tobacco only users and com those that use combinations of all of the different
47:04
substances and they track their cardiovascular health and their lung health and their brain health and a
47:10
number of different issues and again we have this data that's how we can make
47:16
these statements definitively we don't have to ask what if we know I I love it
47:22
I I love it Paul I I cannot thank you enough for doing the work that you do and and and saying it you know and and
47:29
keeping the flame alive keeping this passion that you clearly have for cannabis and this fight that we are
47:36
still fighting uh every day here in this country but as you said and and which I really appreciate from you is the
47:42
perspective about how far we have come because I think that there's there is excitement about cannabis but but as you
47:49
know as you know too there there is still a lot of push back and and for for different reasons from different groups
47:55
and I I think that it's important there's there are people that get frustrated that are overwhelmed and that
48:01
are constantly they're tired of of sort of fighting this fight and they wish that it was just sort of you know normal
48:08
the way that that that we treat it in our own individual lives um and I just I do think that it's such an important
48:15
point that you make that we have moved we have moved we've made progress things
48:20
are a lot different now in 2023 than they were in the 90s concerning cannabis in this country and I I just wanted to
48:27
thank you for the work that you're doing at normal and the work that you've done as an individual in this fight to help
48:33
move cannabis to this place where it is more normalized and the stigma you know of of the last century can hopefully and
48:41
finally just just be dead already you know yeah and I I think bringing up the stigma is really important because I
48:47
think for younger Generations today particularly in jurisdictions like in Illinois or a California or Oregon or
48:54
these these states where were cannabis is legal and we're entire Generations are growing up not knowing um an
49:02
environment where cannabis isn't legal or IL legally available and regulated I think that is going to do so much to
49:11
eliminate the stigma that folks like me in previous generations had to endure
49:18
and of course that was by Design part of the policy surrounding cannabis was to
49:24
stigmatize the users of cannabis so that they would remain in the shadows so that
49:31
they could the the media and others could maintain stereotypes about
49:37
cannabis and there were very few people that were going to self-identify and buuck those Trends
49:45
because that stigma was so prevalent that stigma could cost you your job it
49:51
could cost you your livelihood it could cost you your family that has changed
49:58
dramatically in the last few decades and I think that is going to be a really
50:04
powerful powerful Harbinger to the fact that we are not going to take
50:10
significant step backwards in the coming years but we're going to continue to move forward because for so many people
50:18
that stigma doesn't exist anymore and it's not going to hold people back with
50:24
respect to being hon about their own use of cannabis right on
50:29
and and that is a very encouraging note I totally agree with you I was just reading a book ien about the you know
50:36
those the Gen Z you know those born in '95 and after and and overwhelmingly the stats show that they they would rather
50:43
consume marijuana than alcohol and that they don't they don't identify that
50:49
stigma we were just talking about they they don't have that so I think the the point you just made about how younger
50:55
people growing up in this world where the stigma doesn't exist that is going to move the needle forward that's going
51:01
to move us closer to this place of normalization and you know eventually that stigma it seems like based on that
51:07
that it will die off someday which is very I don't think younger people see
51:13
cannabis as part of a larger culture War anymore and that was clearly an issue
51:21
that held reform and progress back for quite some time you know often times I
51:27
said you know the conversations we're having they're not about cannabis per se they're about what certain Generations
51:34
feel that cannabis represents this idea that somehow if
51:39
you're using cannabis you're unamerican or you're not patriotic again younger
51:46
Generations aren't saddled with that sort of baggage they just see cannabis
51:52
as either a therapeutic agent or a mild intoxicant and it doesn't carry all of
51:58
this additional baggage along with it and that is going to make it much easier
52:03
I think in the future for younger generations to continue this fight and to be successful well that's that's
52:10
wonderful and it's a it's a great uh positive note I think to kind of end on and and I really really do appreciate
52:17
your time Paul armano deputy director of normal as well as a tireless Advocate uh
52:24
for cannabis thank you for the work you're doing at normal and thank you for so many great op EDS and the books
52:30
you've written and uh keep banging the drum my man I I really really appreciate Warriors like you in this fight I
52:35
appreciate giving me the opportunity to have these conversations with you and with your listeners and I want to make
52:41
people know that you know this this fight isn't over and marijuana doesn't legalize itself you know these changes
52:48
take place because of hardworking individuals like me like my colleagues
52:53
at normal and and because of folks like you and your listeners because Normal is
52:59
a Grassroots organization we survive on the donations of our members on the
53:05
volunteering of our activists and if folks want to get involved and I encourage them to do so they can look us
53:12
up online at n rm.org that's great thank you Paul I I I
53:18
appreciate you mentioning that I I had intended to ask you how people could get involved I'm really glad that you put that out there so listener as you just
53:25
heard get over to get over to normal.org and uh and and you know give and and get
53:30
in this fight with the rest of us because this is really important stuff uh Paul armentano thank you for the time
53:35
today thank you for having me it's been fun and there you have it listener I really want to thank my guest Paul
53:41
armentano he really uh gave us such valuable perspective there because I
53:46
know doing this show and just kind of walking around day-to-day as a cannabis consumer in 2023 I know we all get
53:53
frustrated you know time time after time when things like safer banking get stalled in Congress again because they
54:00
can't pick a speaker and I know that we're all frustrated in Illinois where it's like the the the trickle of
54:07
competition among dispensaries has been so slow because of lawsuits and so competition is not high enough and
54:13
prices stay high I know that the perfect version of legal cannabis that exists in
54:19
all of our minds I know that we're frustrated that reality does not meet those expect
54:25
does not equate to those standards I know that but as Paul pointed out you
54:31
have to think of this in terms of what the last 100 years was like you know since 1937 this has been prohibited at a
54:39
level of not just oh hey you know you can't buy 3 ounces for 90 bucks it's not
54:45
just the price point there are still people who are sitting in cells for
54:50
using a small amount of cannabis in some states the the the the slow
54:55
removal of this prohibition it may not be moving as fast as we would like it it
55:02
may not meet the ideal standard that we have in our heads but we are moving and
55:08
government moves at a glacial Pace at best and the fact that we're at this place now where we do see safer banking
55:17
it's on the verge of Passage uh the threshold that it needs to pass the house it's almost there even with this
55:23
new speaker who is supposed very anti-cannabis the American people are still pushing for this to be done it
55:30
will still be done the constituents are making their voices heard and if you haven't called your elected
55:35
representatives in a while or left an email in their offices whether it's for the house or for your Senator uh go
55:42
ahead and do that this week might be a good one remind them that safer banking is top priority let's get these cannabis
55:48
businesses off of a place where they need to use cash only and the rest of us don't need to pay those garbage ATM fees
55:56
when you're using your card at a at a dispensary we all want this to be happening and it's going to happen soon
56:02
and then you know Biden and the his administration talking about rescheduling the 2024 presidential
56:08
election is going to be huge for the prospect of rescheduling cannabis down to schedule 3 from schedule one those
56:15
things are happening now they're in the process of it and very soon they'll be reality and I think 30 years ago if you
56:22
had if you could go back in time and tell somebody 30 years ago that this was going to be reality this year I think
56:28
they would have been thrilled I think a lot of us would have been uh over the moon at the prospect that this finally
56:34
was going to be changed and it's important to keep that perspective in your mind right now patience perspective
56:41
I know it's not that easy especially if you know somebody or if you are somebody who's in jail or your life has been
56:47
impacted by that War on Drugs that's such a failure I understand that it may not be easy to maintain this patience
56:53
but it's the best that that we can do and just know in your heart that this is changing the world is changing uh and it
57:01
doesn't often happen at a quick Pace it's not like you wake up one day uh
57:06
always and the world is totally different it's not a threshold the same way that like the co pandemic or the the
57:12
the war in Ukraine or in Gaza it's not like a world changing thing like that where all of a sudden there's a before
57:19
and then snap and then there's the after it's not like a a curtain where you just you're on one side and then you're on
57:25
the other there's a lot that has to happen with these things and you know as uh the legal states are finding they're
57:32
they're they are experimenting through trial and error to find the policies that need to happen or the best policies
57:39
going forward and as Paul said it's not going to be like a federal program where
57:45
all of a sudden there's a federal cannabis legalization it's more that the feds will get out of the way and let
57:52
States conduct their own measures let States conduct their own policies in
57:57
terms of of cannabis the way they do with a lot of other things alcohol included um Utah is uh mostly dry State
58:05
and Wisconsin is uh conversely very wet soaking wet if you like uh in terms of
58:10
uh of of alcohol laws and and uh counties that embi in in in the drink so
58:16
different states have different laws concerning alcohol too and as Paul mentioned that's likely what it's going
58:22
to look like for the federal policy regarding cannabis instead of them getting in the way and making their own
58:29
network uh and sort of dictating what states can do I think they'll just move
58:34
out of the way and say hey it's schedule three now whatever you States want to do with it by all means uh go for that and
58:41
and on that note I wanted to mention uh one thing that came out uh earlier this week uh this was published Again by
58:48
marijuana moment publication that you are familiar with now listener I I definitely love the work they do and I
58:54
try and bring you some interesting stories when they publish them and the headline of this one which was published
58:59
October 26th reads traffic death rates fell in states that legalized cannabis
59:05
new study findes while those that kept criminalization saw slight increase now
59:12
this was published by Ben Adin and the article which I will not read fully but I'll give you the gist here states that
59:18
legalized cannabis in 2016 saw meaningful declines in traffic fatalities during the year immediately
59:25
following the policy change this is a study done by Quartz advisor takeaways
59:31
though he mentions were less clear over a longer period of time that included
59:36
years the report describes as anomalies Nationwide those I'm guessing even
59:41
without going to the bottom would include the pandemic years when we know traffic and driving incidents were uh
59:47
way off the charts for a lot of different reasons that had nothing to do with legal cannabis ultimately the paper
59:53
concludes motor vehicle safety quote should not be a significant concern for marijuana legalization initiatives
1:00:00
especially when measured against alcohol this obviously was something that just came up in my conversation with Paul
1:00:06
armentano of normal um this is something that I I think that it is a mistake
1:00:11
there is a little bit of this going on right now where there's equivocating of traffic laws concerning alcohol use and
1:00:19
traffic laws concerning cannabis use and what I really like about this study is that they point out there is a
1:00:26
difference that that even though we kind of look at regulations for alcohol as a
1:00:32
model for what we may do with cannabis it's not a perfect model of of what we should do because there is a difference
1:00:38
in what those substances and their effects are on us and what this study
1:00:43
says is that alcohol's effects on us in terms of driving and operating Motor Vehicles are not the same as cannabis
1:00:52
another quote here is as of yet Studies have failed to to show that legalization of cannabis has resulted in any
1:00:58
significant increase in traffic fatalities in the places where it's been legalized however the same cannot be
1:01:04
said for alcohol an intoxicant that remains legal widely available and
1:01:09
deeply ingrained in our culture the findings are not peer-reviewed I wanted
1:01:15
to mention examine traffic fatality data from four states that legalized adult use cannabis in 2016 those States would
1:01:23
be California Maine Massachusetts and Nevada Court's adviser then compared
1:01:28
those States vehicle death rates to the national average as well as to rates in five states where marijuana remained
1:01:35
illegal During the period those five states were Idaho Indiana Kansas Nebraska and Wyoming in the three years
1:01:42
following the change the report says None of the four legalized States saw an increase in traffic deaths most in fact
1:01:50
saw declines that's a far better outcome than in the five states the report examined where marijuana remained
1:01:56
illegal which together experienced a 1.7% increase in their combined traffic
1:02:02
death rate from 2016 to 2019 and then they go on to kind of
1:02:08
explain how the picture gets muddier when the analysis was expanded to include data from 2020 and 2021 which as
1:02:15
I mentioned include pandemic years and obviously I think any studies done of
1:02:20
any kind of human behavior you should really just throw those out in pandemic years or put them in their own category
1:02:26
don't throw them out but look at them separately in a vacuum from the data that's from non pandemic years because
1:02:33
as we know that's just a major factor that you cannot discount
1:02:40
when you're trying to look at human behavior and the results of those things so that is all that I will go through of
1:02:46
that article there's more information there I will certainly link it in the show description notes as I always do if
1:02:52
you're interested in reading it yourself which I encourage encourage you to do you can click on that link or head to marijuana moment.com and check out that
1:02:59
article they publish great stuff I highly encourage you to uh to read what they do and uh and that's all for me
1:03:06
this week uh I wanted to get that story to you and I I really appreciate my guest Paul armitano for coming on and
1:03:12
giving us some wonderful perspective about where cannabis has come from legal cannabis that is what what the landscape
1:03:19
used to look like in the US when he first started fighting this fight it's still not where any of us wants it to be
1:03:25
but you have to be encouraged when you look at the progress over the last few decades where we are now versus where
1:03:32
we've come from we have made progress we are moving and it is an exciting time to be a cannabis Enthusiast so I I think
1:03:39
that it's not going to be too much more time until we do have cannabis on schedule 3 and we do have this
1:03:45
interstate Market of Commerce allowing businesses to uh to sort of send supplies to one another you'll be able
1:03:51
to Outsource better cannabis grown Outdoors from other states for your operation in some state that gets cold 6
1:03:58
months out of the year like Illinois which just got cold on Halloween this week it was snowing you may have been
1:04:03
out for trick-or-treating I really hope that that went better for you than uh than it did for some people around our
1:04:09
building I know that it was uh we had a lot of snow covered costumes uh around the building and so that's something
1:04:14
that uh you know cold does affect cannabis plants and obviously depending on where you're going to grow it or not
1:04:20
um that that impacts your your profits your bottom line of a business and so the the ability to have different
1:04:27
Outsourcing and communication and uh different business Arrangements between operations in different states that's
1:04:33
just one example of what you know rescheduling cannabis out of schedule one something that that's going to allow
1:04:40
for and there's a lot more exciting stuff down the Horizon and I will be looking at and talking about all of it
1:04:46
right here on the Cannabis man podcast be sure to subscribe to the show follow us on X and Instagram and Facebook and
1:04:53
go ahead and support the show down in the show description notes if you feel that you enjoyed what uh what this
1:04:58
episode brought for you and it'll help us uh continue bringing these shows out in the future these cannabis
1:05:04
conversations that I love having with people as this legalization effort is moving forward chronicling all these
1:05:10
changes in real time I love doing it and I want to keep bringing it to you and your support very very much makes that
1:05:17
possible so thank you for listening to the show and supporting it and I'll be back again next week with another episode of the Cannabis man podcast
1:05:26
[Music]
1:05:31
bye-bye cannabis man is 100% originally crafted by myself Don kleppen original
1:05:38
theme music written and composed by Yu Kim AKA [Music]
1:05:53
Goodson [Music]



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